Looting or, My eternal desire to not shout bang at the enemy

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Ferrard Carson
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Re: Looting or, My eternal desire to not shout bang at the e

Post by Ferrard Carson »

*edit* Ninja'd wrt lack of comms in Rebound.
Cuddlefish wrote:I was almost out of ammo and it seemed better to grab an enemy gun now than be completely ineffective in a few minutes, but I can certainly avoid making that decision again if you guys prefer. Sorry for any trouble or dry-cleaning bills caused.
Yeah, that's the overriding concern - if you would otherwise be combat ineffective, sure, pick up an enemy weapon. The trouble in this particular case was that no one told us in Support. I think the CO was already dead at this point, so a significant portion of that was that we were pretty disorganized, and an SL was having to command the platoon, which is not an easy task in the slightest. You did more or less what you were supposed to do. The problem is when people trade out weapons without theirs having been ineffective in the first place.

ArmA doesn't simulate the many, many reasons you wouldn't pick up an enemy firearm IRL unless it were your absolute last resort: Each gun has a slightly different sighting, even within the same model. Guns from a less-professional army like that of a militia or third-world country have a significant chance of being improperly zeroed, improperly sighted, or even outright damaged from misuse. Ammunition from a militia or third-world country is more likely to be unreliable or even hazardous to the user (think gun-culture's obsession with hot-loading cartridges). Guns from a professional army are even more dangerous, because the pros know to "spike" their equipment if they're leaving it on the field, or worse, booby-trap equipment such that picking it up would be a Bad Idea.

Yes, I just used the horrid "IRL" argument. Is it so wrong of us as a group to strive for Authenticity? Realism isn't our cup of tea, but I'll be damned if we turn into another Public 24/7 Domi server where everyone just grabs AS50's and rocket launchers, then sit on a hill plinking at targets with impunity for twenty minutes.

~ Ferrard
"Take a boat in the air you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turnin' of the worlds. Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurtin' before she keels... makes her home."

Macaco
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Re: Looting or, My eternal desire to not shout bang at the e

Post by Macaco »

Ferrard Carson wrote: Yes, I just used the horrid "IRL" argument. Is it so wrong of us as a group to strive for Authenticity? Realism isn't our cup of tea, but I'll be damned if we turn into another Public 24/7 Domi server where everyone just grabs AS50's and rocket launchers, then sit on a hill plinking at targets with impunity for twenty minutes.
What I meant by realism was that the argument "no one does it in real life" is invalid as they in fact do do it. Not as in Captain America war trophies, but as in, "Hey look, an AK. That will probably be the difference between going home to my kids or not"

Also there is a big difference between not letting anyone pick up an M4 because we wanna pretend the guy who died holding it might have booby trapped it, and folk devolving into 50 guys with KSVKs all a kilometer out from each other trying to play DM. Realism and authenticity because it adds to the enjoyment is one thing. Realism for the sake of realism is overkill.

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Ferrard Carson
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Re: Looting or, My eternal desire to not shout bang at the e

Post by Ferrard Carson »

Macaco wrote:...they in fact do do it [ ... ] as in, "Hey look, an AK. That will probably be the difference between going home to my kids or not"
And I've covered this already in that if you're critical on ammo, I think it's perfectly justified to tell everyone you're picking up an enemy weapon, and then do so. The problem is when people ignore either the "critical on ammo" bit or the "tell everyone" bit. This isn't America's Army where you can sling a rifle to serve as a backup or to deny it to the enemy, so there is no reason for someone in this game who isn't critical on ammo to be picking up an enemy weapon.

Just because the game doesn't simulate unfamiliar (or downright unreliable) enemy equipment doesn't mean that you can immediately trade out your ironsighted M-4 for an FN-FAL or an AK-107 PSO because you as a player know how to use it. "Because the game doesn't simulate it" would imply that "it's okay to shoot one AI teammate to get his gun - the AI only aggros on you if you kill 2 allies." This, and a lot of the other practices we frown upon such as using enemy equipment without reason, is blatantly gaming the game, and blatantly gaming the game is very much frowned upon. We have generally accepted and unaccepted practices here because we want the FA sessions to be played as a team in a semi-formal spirit, and not as Yet Another FPS, because ArmA has the potential for so much more than Yet Another FPS, and we're here to explore that potential without getting mired in enough stuff that we become unaccessible. We don't demand ranks and fealty and salutes. We don't require a 10Gb mod-pack. We only ask that you show up, play, and contribute to the team, whether that be by doing certain things (respect your fellow comrades and configure CC if you're in a leadership role) or by not doing certain other things (don't go rambo or use something your 11-bang-bang dude wouldn't know how to use, like a tank or a helicopter). "Don't use enemy weapons unless absolutely necessary," happens to fall into that second list.

~ Ferrard

*EDIT: removed some irrelevant stuff. My apologies.
"Take a boat in the air you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turnin' of the worlds. Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurtin' before she keels... makes her home."

Macaco
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Re: Looting or, My eternal desire to not shout bang at the e

Post by Macaco »

I think this thread has become people (me included) saying what they want to say with either not much understanding, or not caring what the last person said. Perhaps starting it and expecting normal discussion wasn't so wise.

Black Mamba
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Re: Looting or, My eternal desire to not shout bang at the e

Post by Black Mamba »

Cuddlefish wrote:Ferrard, it looks like from your clip that I was the shooter in that instance, and it's quite possible that Stranglove and Black Mamba were also hearing me. I was an Automatic Rifleman; and at that point I had just acquired that PKM after my SAW was at ~85 rounds remaining between my supply of STANAGs. I was also at the time unaware [though I quickly discovered it once I put it into use] of the large effectiveness gap between the two aforementioned weapons - not sure what I'd have done if I'd been more informed. I certainly wouldn't have grabbed an RPG or whatnot. While I did communicate this to my acting FTL who relayed it to our Squad level; it was a bit of a misguided/shortsighted move in that regard. I was almost out of ammo and it seemed better to grab an enemy gun now than be completely ineffective in a few minutes, but I can certainly avoid making that decision again if you guys prefer. Sorry for any trouble or dry-cleaning bills caused.
The decision itself, if you ask me, wasn't that bad. I mean, you even relayed it to your squad leader (There might have been a comms fuck-up, cause we never knew that, but still). On the other hand, as you noted yourself, the only issue is you went from an AAR weapon (the SAW) to an MMG one. As we've been discussing that at length now, let's not put out more of a circus, but to summarize, I guess this is basically a good rule of thumb:

If you're a FTL, an AAR, a rifleman (AT), you should pick up at best an unscoped assault rifle when you're out of ammo and can't resupply.
If you're an AR, you should pick up a SAW or an RPK, and if not possible, an assault rifle.
MMG or HMG could pick up up to a PKM, M60, M240.
MAT or HAT could pick up rifles and RPGs.
This is not in order to keep a 'realism' thing going on, just to keep a fair share of fun for everyone, by letting people having chosen a particular slot fulfill that role.

Night vision usually shouldn't be picked up unless stated otherwise by the mission maker or the host.
The binocular case, I don't really know.
Grenades shouldn't be much of a problem to loot.
Pistols, well, the AI doesn't really fire them much, so I guess it's not much of a problem either.

Macaco
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Re: Looting or, My eternal desire to not shout bang at the e

Post by Macaco »

Black Mamba wrote: Pistols, well, the AI doesn't really fire them much, so I guess it's not much of a problem either.
You heard it here first. Mamba has authorized the 25th Appropriations Division, Makarov Company! :hist101:

Black Mamba
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Re: Looting or, My eternal desire to not shout bang at the e

Post by Black Mamba »

I don't represent anything here, and thus don't authorize shit.
Just gave an opinion.

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